USB 2 ports

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fsx1962
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USB 2 ports

Post by fsx1962 » 16 Mar 2019, 01:30

So I think we all know that the Logitech \ Saitek devices all work best if not exclusively on USB-2. The FIP's especially, however it would appear that less and less motherboard are providing USB-2 connectivity. Whats a person to do if you want to build a new rig?
A couple thoughts I had, are use USB-2 cables to the device's or use a USB-2 hub. Though both of these options will be hooked to a USB 3 port the signaling should appear as USB-2, as if I understand the USB standard, USB-3 will fall back to a USB-2 if it a USB 2 device is connected to it.

My question is is my logic sound or will I have issues tiring to use the Logitech \ Saitek devices plugged into a USB-2 multi port powered hub but connected to a USB-3 port?

regards,
Tom

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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by Hazza » 16 Mar 2019, 05:36

You can still buy PCI Express USB 2.0 expansion cards e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Hi-Speed- ... B000E6HFX0

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thedazman
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by thedazman » 16 Mar 2019, 08:54

I also had to get a usb2.0 expansion card for my pc for the same reason. But also interested if kit is connected to usb2.0 hub connected to Usb3 hub is that ok. Being an IT engineer I should know, but haven’t got a clue!

Daz
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fsx1962
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by fsx1962 » 16 Mar 2019, 14:15

Daz, I agree i should know as well being a system engineer. I guess it would be simple enough to plug my usb-2 hub into a usb-3 port and see what happens. my current system is 90% stable as is so it would be a good test. Makes me wonder if Logitech has any plans to update the FIP and other panels to USB3 at all?

I give the usb2 hub plugged into a usb3 port a go and see what I get...

If anyone else on here has experience do this please share.

Regards

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thedazman
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by thedazman » 16 Mar 2019, 15:03

The fip firmware hasn’t changed in 10+ years, neither have the totally bland and inaccurate gauges they supply with the fips!!

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fsx1962
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by fsx1962 » 17 Mar 2019, 01:52

Daz,
Oh I am well aware of the lack of any updates. To be honest, I have to admit I am surprised they are still making them. IRT the gauges, I agree, but to be honest. their poor quality is what lead me to you amazing gauges.

Regards

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Steve Horsfall
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by Steve Horsfall » 17 Mar 2019, 04:52

fsx1962 requested other persons input to the USB2 vs USB3 problems.
Here are my findings, I have 6 FIPs, three of each connected to a powered USB2 7 port hub and connected to the PC's USB 2 ports. Another 7 port USB powered hub has the Radio Panel, Multi Panel and Switch Panel connected to the PC's USB2 port. The Yoke / Throttle quadrant is connected to USB2 with the Rudder Pedals using the inbuilt hub on the Yoke which is powered by a 2 Amp plugpack.
When the FIP and Panel hubs were plugged into the USB3 ports, the FIPs started to lag on the altimeter and the bug indicator on the HSI took a long time to respond to the knob. The Radio and Multi Panel also had lag with switching delays. The Switch Panel did not show up in SPAD after re starting twice and changing hub positions. It did work directly on the USB3 port on the PC, but the landing gear position lights worked intermittantley. When i connected the Yoke to the USB3 on the PC and restarted, " BLUE SCREEN of DEATH! ). :twisted: Obviousley the PC did not like the Yoke!. After restarting the PC multiple times with only a keyboard attached still get BLUE SCREEN. Looks like something corrupted at startup. No Planes or Trains for a while :cry

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c0nnex
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by c0nnex » 17 Mar 2019, 06:15

Start in Safe Mode, Unistall the yoke Driver (Which got automatically installed). It most likely installed the saitek fake mouse driver and messed up the system.

The whole problem about USB2 vs. USB3 is the Speed. USB3 is fired with 640mbyte/s which will make the USB2 port of the saitek device drop bytes (because it can only handle 480mbit/s) and due to the nature of the software-implementation by saitek on the devices itself, it will still try to process the corrupt data, leading into the device crashing internally or doing underterminable things.

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thedazman
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by thedazman » 17 Mar 2019, 21:38

So will putting a usb2 hub between the FIP and the PC create a bottle neck in the hub and slow down the transmitting to the FIP?

Daz
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c0nnex
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Re: USB 2 ports

Post by c0nnex » 18 Mar 2019, 00:34

The USB2 Hub must be USB3 compatible if you plug it into any USB3 Port, else the Hub will loose the data and not the device.

In case it is USB3 compatible, the hub will "slow down" the data transfer to the fips intentionally , to meet the 480mbit/s limitation.
Thus creating a "wanted" bottleneck.

Just imagine USB like a waterpipe with an overflow vent.
USB2 the water flows with 480 buckets/s.
USB3 the water flows with 6400 buckets/s.

If in any cases more buckets come in than supported, the overflow vent will open and spill the excess water.
in case of an USB3 compatible USB2 device, the USB2 Device will TELL the USB3 that it is limited to 480 buckets/s and the computer will take care not to overflow the pipe. (tech: flow-control)

USB2 (NOT USB3 compatible) device on USB3 port -> A lot of overflow will happen with FIP's
USB2 (NOT USB3 compatible) device on USB2 Hub (USB3 compatible) on USB3 port = Hub will tell USB3Port not to send more than 480 buckets/s
USB2 (NOT USB3 compatible) device on USB2 Hub (NOT USB3 compatible) on USB3 port = Hub will spill the excess and corrupt data

Technically this means:
USB2 limits the FIP to roughly about a max of 12-16 fps (depends on the hardware rev of the fip) by it's datarate.
if you now fire it with USB3 which can do like 25-30 fps (again hardware depending) the fip will be overlflow and crash when trying to process the data corrupted by the overflow. ( bad firmware implemenation of the fip )
(Btw. the fip firmware 1.0.3 is dated 2009 :-D )

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